Interview with Lisa Stam Spring Law


Hello welcome,  to the latest podcast for the AI Guides, and today we are joined by Lisa Stam from Spring Law. So welcome Lisa.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

And as always, I’m John Stroud, and I’m joined by Jen Schellinck.

Hi there everybody. And today, we’re gonna talk about AI and the practice of law, partly the, the practice of law, but also the, idea about running a law firm as a business.

And that’s why we asked Lisa to come on. So Lisa, could you just start off, tell us a little bit about your story and, and your.

Lisa: Sure. So I started in all the traditional ways it feels like almost before the internet in some ways, but in 2004. And so it was just a regular recruiting and all that kinda stuff.

And I, I did union side for a few years and then eventually switched over to a big global firm. So I had this experience of you know, small firm. And then I went onto Bay Street for a few years and then I went out and started my own shop with a partner. And then after three years we decided to part our ways and then I started up Spring law, the firm that I have now.

And we’re heading into our fifth year anniversary this spring.


Thank you. Thank you.

Now with that firm, when you set it up, it was a little different than a traditional firm though, right? Because you don’t actually see any clients in person.


Lisa: Correct. So I started it up in 2017 in the, in the late winter, early spring of 2017.

And I knew that what I wanted more than anything else was to have a really integrated. digital conveyor belt. I always like to say of all the, the, the data coming into the firm and being used in a really efficient way and to have it  completely virtual. So just as a rule, nobody can meet clients in person unless unless they’re doing legal proceeding.

I mean, you know, we only have so much sway with the judges. So if, if it’s a legal proceeding, we have to show up. But otherwise it’s a hundred percent virtual all the time and built the whole business plan around that. I mean, the Covid pandemic has made us all no big whoop but we, you know, beforehand it was still sorting through what that would look like.

And why did you do that before Covid?

Lisa: A couple of reasons. I, you know, I, I was in different firms that were excellent and, and would see different models where there was. Money is being spent on the physical bricks-and-mortar infrastructure that the clients would never, ever see. So it was all ultimately so that lawyers feel great about themselves and really special and, and to attract talent because you’ve got like fancy offices with sandwiches on carts that through the hallway.

And it, it, it wasn’t, it had nothing to do with client service. And so, you know, and, and the odd time that someone would come in having to explain, parking to them in one of these downtown Toronto office towers on how to like get their pickup down there, and fine and like, and then they’re paying 30 bucks.


And then they’re coming upstairs and it just always sent this wrong tone to everyone. If you’re working with great big businesses and great big clients so that, you know, that need the global footprint from when they’re popping into Toronto out of Japan or whatever, fine, that’s great. But that’s a tiny part of the world actually.

And so, and I just, working with people and, and people don’t want all that stuff.


And where do your clients come from now?

Lisa: All over Ontario, but also all over Canada now. So we, we, it, it, I have turned away over the last five years probably about. Three that I can think of on the top of my head, but I’m sure there’s, let’s say, half a dozen clients that we just said, you know what, we, we won’t see you in person, so let me refer you out to this excellent lawyer who will do that.

But then we’ve had just so many more clients that came to us because they’re outside of. where I personally live and work. And and so it just, it actually expanded our business as opposed to shrink it. But it was, it was so that we’re not building in extra costs around commuting time or, you know, your day gets shot if you’re driving an hour, including parking and mm-hmm.
doing your hair and all this stuff to get down to the one hour meeting. Yeah. And then drive home again. You have triple the cost basically.

Yeah. Yeah. So, so you sort of had this vision and you realize, and I mean we have to keep emphasizing this was pre pandemic, right? You know, now I was like, oh, of course that was it.

But this was, you know, so you’re, you are a real trail breaker in this respect, and I’m imagining that you know, some of the people who are listening to you describe this. Especially if we cast our minds back to that time, they’re [00:05:00] probably thinking like, how, how did you make this vision become a reality?

How did you, you talked about this, this digital conveyor belt that you wanted to have, but how, how did you actually go from that, that at the time, extremely trailblazing vision to making it happen?


Lisa: Well, I, for many years have always been interested in this and. I, I, you know, I remember even in like 2010, 2013, running across articles about VLOs virtual law offices.

Mm-hmm. And, and I, I can remember talking to colleagues at that point, I was still on Bay Street and them thinking that that was like totally ridiculous science fiction, you know, wacky hippies that are, you know, trying to do this out in the in the desert or whatever. And, and it wasn’t that it was that I just, there was something appealing about it.

So what I did do was I, because I. You know, we have parted ways with one partnership and then open up this. So there was a moment where I had to like, figure things out quickly. I have two little kids, so probably the hardest part of all of that was I needed to carve out the time to think. Hmm. And so I just needed to like, pull all the stuff that was sort of all over my office and, and go somewhere and plan.

So I, you know, I would’ve loved to have gone to The Bahamas for a week. You know, done some serious things, sat under your umbrella, but when you’re between law firms like that, that’s not on the table. So what I did is I, on points found a, you know, a, a not horribly crappy, but definitely not a top star hotel close to my house in the east end of Toronto.

And and just packed up. I, I grabbed my biggest suitcase and I packed. Although like the, the loose end papers of Post-it notes and planning things and business books that I love and through them all in a suitcase with a monitor so that I could then go to this hotel that needed to have. And the two things I wanted at the hotel, I didn’t care about anything else other than I wanted a gym so that I could go and burn off steam once in a while.

And then good wifi. Right. So that, that’s like many things in 2017 already even. So I went and I went to the hotel and just set up a war room for, for several nights and just like, like made it my monk cell and just absorbed everything I could. Googled like crazy and just did tons of research, talked to vendors and, and knew that the central anchor I wanted for my new law firm was I knew the practice management software I wanted, I knew I wanted Clio and then I, I, like, I have a graph piece of paper that’s still sitting somewhere because I, I, I’m sure I scan it in by now and threw it out.

But, and just built out all around that central anchor, all the things that could talk to it. And then always with the. All the way through. How do I create a firm where we never have to click something twice where the data flows from one piece of software to the other. So yes, you have to click to like export sometimes, but it still will.

It’s not data entry and, and you’re not needing people and wasting their skills on data entry. You can really focus in on just all the information coming. [00:08:00] and then advising on that information and, and just cut to the chase way faster. Yeah.

And this is a beautiful vision that you’re, you’re painting for us because, I mean, you’re really talking about this, you, you went from like, you basically had a personal, like business retreat and then you basically took your digital maturity.

We talked about digital maturity from like, Here to like hear in the space of this, this one, one retreat and, and so it’s, it, I’m just picturing the map that you’ve made and it’s, it’s a, just a great example of what you can do on that front.

So thanks. Well, and it’s a deliberate decision to make too, right?

Because I think every, well, all business people, but lawyers are, are always spreading themselves too thin. Most traditional le legal services, you make money based on how many hours you can work. So we that just, you know, ex amplifies the problem. So carving out. , the thinking time to sit down and then having the luxury of building from scratch.

It’s super fun, first of all, but also there’s no baggage, there’s, I don’t have to, I didn’t have to worry about, it was a one person law firm at that point with, I had one part-time assistant that would help me once they got going, but I didn’t have to answer to anyone, and I could just. Create the thing that I thought would work and give it a go and not worry about who’s going to adopt the practice or create their own little silo and still use your own old server , whatever.

Right, right, right. Exactly. Oh, the old server . Yes. How long did it take until you knew it was working? Well, you, I mean, if you do it right you, you don’t have a, I didn’t have to worry about rent or infrastructure that way. You know, I was certainly breaking even and covering all my costs, you know, within the first month and just being very careful, very deliberate about every expense.

You know, and then trying hard to grow to match the revenue as opposed to right the other way around, but, you know, I’m, I’m heading in on five years and lots of stuff happens all along the way. So it’s definitely at times more of an art than a science of things that I didn’t predict, but that infrastructure has not changed.

Oh. So that’s, that’s another testament to the planning piece. Yeah. Yeah. And you know what? I actually still have here. I’ll show you. Cause since this is a podcast with an a video component to it, you can show us there. I know I can show you something, but I’ll describe it for anyone who’s only listening.

Here’s a little post-it note that I had created at the time. It’s the departments that I divided. You can see February. Yes. And I divided. I divided, okay, if I’m gonna create a business, what are the departments that I need to think about? Because I don’t love all aspects of it. Uhhuh, , and I and I, and I don’t have strengths in every aspect, so I was, I was really worried that I would just gravitate to the things I like and not pay enough attention to the things that I’m either crappy at or, or I’m not naturally drawn to.

And so I created for my little dinky law firm, the departments that I would have and, and organized everything around that. And to this day, I still do, we started rolling out a Asana recently and I still am just [00:11:00] stuck on, you know, number one is, is HR people, number two is laws of number three is finances. Like I still have this sort of those structure and our server reflects that.

My labels and my Gmail reflects that. Like I, I just have this structure to, to put everything in. And that hasn’t. . I other than that, this is all paperless now. Well that’s, that’s, and that’s other than the papers. God, but I mean, and what, what you’re describing is an information architecture. So you, you basically, okay, you built your, you built your information architecture based on your organizational structure, and that’s a very good thing to do, and, and it’s worked for you, so Yeah.

So there’s a name for it. I didn’t know that. Yeah, so I just , I’m like, how do I not screw up? That was actually what I was after, you’re savant.

So as part of your digital maturity, you’re, you are a small firm and you’re actually using artificial intelligence.
We are.

Can you talk about that?

Lisa: Sure. Five or six or seven or 10 years ago where you’d have [00:12:00] to hire someone to do all that for you.

Now there’s just so many software programs that are available. It’s just a, it’s like a simple matter of subscribing to things, but then baking it into your firm’s workflows. So the main area we’re using it for now is our legal research, and there’s some great companies out there that, that are producing great legal research.

And so we’re, you know, we’re always trying to bake in the, the systems that the legal research. They’re, you know, the, the, the software platforms, how they enter in data. We’re trying to mirror that in into our system so that I, you know, we download that to a more junior level in the firm, or a paralegal or assistant, if they can just fill in the info or ideally for at least a couple of them, we have forms built out that we would flip over to the client.

They fill out all the criteria that comes in, and then we can just pop that into the AI tool or sync it up at some point. We’ll get there zap it together somehow or whatever it might be, [00:13:00] and then run the ai. To get a prediction of what the court would award in a, in, you know, we only do employment lawder firms.

So there’s a couple of great programs out there that will predict what a court would award an an employee today, and it’s just a, it’s, it’s transforming legal services very quickly. So rather than having a junior lawyer do it, which is. Would be the case four or five years ago. Now you have another option that you can ask the AI for a prediction.

Mm-hmm. , about what’s gonna happen in this case. And so what does that mean to clients and to you.

Well, you know, we try and do as many video calls with clients as we can, so it’s a bit more personal, and so often.

I’ll just share my screen with them, pop up the tool, and run it through with them and and so they can see it all in action and they just get the answer right there in five minutes, le or less.

Whereas I remember spending years as a junior being [00:14:00] given a thing and you go write a memo. Going into the actual paper library of the law firm and, and finding the needle in the haystack and spending hours on it.

Hours, which probably at one point was all billable. Mm-hmm. or, or partly. And over the years, you can bill less and less research for better or for worse, because we don’t know everything off the top of our head and we have to look some stuff up.

But these tools are predicting in a way that’s way more effective than, than. , you know, an exhausted, inexperienced junior lawyer.

So how do you think you compare to a typical law firm? Because lawyers have a reputation for being slow to adopt technology. And you’ve even said the practice of law hasn’t changed all that much since Charles Dickens wrote Bleak House.

Right. And here you are, you’ve got your digital architecture and you’ve got AI. So how do you think you compare it to, to other firms?

Certainly as a firm owner, a Well, maybe not as a firm owner, but me com, my skillset compared to a, a traditional lawyer is that I, I love building and creating stuff, right?

I don’t wanna just perfect what we already have and it’s not a great instinct. I have, I just wanna throw that maybe out with the bathwater and start from scratch every single time. And that’s, you know, my team has slowed me down on that, that that’s actually inefficient. A good chunk of the time, . But the world of law is all about basing it on precedent from, from like 200 years ago. And it’s it, it’s, it’s, we’re trained that way to just hang on to what exists and, and, and not go around that. So I think that that is a, a culture that I’m always trying to build. So I’m, you know, I’m, I love thinking through optimizing workflows and, and how to eliminate every step, right?

I’m always a, a, again, back to. You know, how do I eliminate clicks of my mouse, because that adds up. You, you times that, you know, we’re a team of 10 now you, you multiply that by 10 times a year and all of a sudden [00:16:00] you could have achieved a whole bunch more for a few weeks there. It does really add up. And so thinking through workflows and then, and then what outcome you want and then, and then pulling in the tech to support that.

And and, and I’m always resisting doing tech for the sake of tech, which is hard for me cuz it’s fun to poke around and learn new stuff. . That is important though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think a lot of traditional lawyers aren’t into that. They just like, that Don’t bug me with that. I just, I’m, I’m a high fact finder.

I want security. I want to do the, what I did yesterday and make lots of money. So if you love poking around with tech, then it makes it all a lot more fun too.
Well, that’s, I wanna, I wanna pick up on that thread because of course I’m imagining people who are watching this and they’re thinking, well, all those people are super technical people and, you know, I don’t know about this.
And I think part of it, people think that we sugarcoat how easy it is to use technology and they’re like, I’m not sure about that. So, so, and in the interest of, you know, telling people we’re not trying to sugarcoat things. My next question for you relates [00:17:00] to what you would say have been some of the challenges you have experienced adopting this technology.

Cause I’m sure it hasn’t been like all just smooth, smooth sailing. Right, right. It’s true. It’s quite true. And I think every single organization will have this around change management and, and whether it’s te related to tech or you move the desks around or whatever it might be, change management can be really hard.
I am am pretty grateful that, that our team. Is open to always moving things along. And, and you know, we, we certainly try hard to hire people that, that, that demonstrate an openness to that, but it’s hard to always predict. But getting, so the hardest thing about tech is people, I think is getting people comfortable with it and, and learning the right cadence to roll out new tech.

It can’t be at my pace because I don’t care if I don’t know it. I’m just gonna, you’re just like, play around. And I don’t get ticked off by that. I, I’ll just Google it a bit more and, and, or I’ll just leave it unfinished and, and do it tomorrow. And yeah, it’s I don’t mind [00:18:00] the, the unfamiliarity of that.

Mm-hmm. , but that’s not, I think how most people are wired. We actually, I learned this because we did a we did a, a skills test a year ago with the team almost a year ago now, as we were like, you know, getting some coaching on how to keep improving our workflows. And so we all had to do a Colby assessment and, and the whole team came back with largely predictable.
Range of results, right? The lawyers were high fact finders. They don’t wanna you know, reinvent the wheel every day. And, and the assistance were really good about follow through and doing like, it was pretty, and then I was off in this little corner, like, don’t, don’t burn me with too many facts. I just wanna quick start everything, move things along, you know what your numbers are.

I can’t remember off the top of my head actually, because that’s like a fact. Why would I retain that? That’s a high fact. , , like, I dunno, I just, I can look that up later and always. I know the one where it was like future, thinking about the future, that was like one of my highest scores. I just always looking at what will this look like down the road and where to go next.

and then just picking up on some of those other issues and risks. So you’re a law firm, so you have to be worried about people’s privacy and confidentiality. How do you ensure that you, you protect those?

Sure. It just occurred to me though, as you’re asking that question. I don’t know why, cuz I don’t know that they’re related, but I, I’m just the, the last question you asked about challenges.

Yeah. Security is part of it, for sure. Mm-hmm. . And I think that’s what triggered me. But the, the other massive challenge, especially pre covid, was the adjudicators in the word of law. . And it was and, and often beyond their control cuz they’re within an infrastructure that is what it is. But we could do all the digital and and tech savvy type of approach that we want, but then you get.
to the point where you’re now in front of a mediator or you’re in [00:20:00] court and that’s all heavy paper based. And so all that work you do to have everything all completely digital and then you still have to like take everything through the printer right. The week before the the hearing. So that Covid has transformed that big time and it’s been Oh, interesting to watch.

Yeah. That has been changed. , you know, private arbitrators still hit or miss, you know, and, and it’s a comfort zone for them too. People like to just see the paper in front of them and feel it, and, and, you know, have people in the same room where they can. Whereas I think, you know, zoom and video calls.

are so much more efficient and actually comfortable for many more people than the uncomfortable people think, right? Mm-hmm. . And so it’s, and, and I’m obviously very biased in the other directions, so somewhere in the middle is the truth, I guess You mean comfortable for the clients, for the, for all the participants, whoever it might be, whether it’s the client or.

You know, getting people, dragging people into court in person is not always, especially, you know one of the [00:21:00] lawyers in our firm did criminal law for years before she joined spring law, and she, you know, would tell the stories of dragging people out of the cell into court and if they had a mental health issue all the.

You know, and, and like the, the getting the getting them there all like, all the distress of it. And then you’ve got the guards and the police involved and the, and like tasers involved and medication involved to just get them to court to set a date for their next appearance. Right? It’s so ridiculous.

Whereas now that just put the phone right, you don’t even, like, you need the technology of the phone that will solve all of that. So I, you know, the, the system really. To catch up a hundred years. And I think, I think it really has come a long way. I was talking to someone this morning and he did a hybrid trial last week.
So it was partly virtual, partly in person, depending on the nature of the, the person that you needed to talk to, which witness it was. And Hmm. So we’ve come a long way that, and that, that was here in Toronto. So that’s, you know, we’re getting there. Okay. Anyways, when it comes to Secur, that’s related to security.

Yeah. Because , know, we’re on Gmail plat on the Google platform. Mm-hmm. . And in 2017, I think people were still thinking that’s, you know what your kids are on. That’s right. Your personal email. What kind of security exists around that? You know, we’re, and so I always wanted to fight against that perception.
So I think your biggest security. Step to take is just go paperless and, and eliminate all the junk around everyone’s home office or around the, the actual office and just get rid of paper and, and, and then you can ring fence what you have to worry about in the first place. So we, we, from day one, I was really careful about.

Learning about security and then sharing with clients about security in part because, you know, maybe some traditional clients were a little curious about this whole Google thing and how can you run a law firm on Google. But, and again, now even only five years later, I don’t feel like we have to defend that anymore in the same way.

So I hired a great IT company that I’m still with and he [00:23:00] would attend our quarterly. Meetings by video to help teach my team, right. To talk about like, like always just have two factor authentication on everything. And you know, I, everyone has a computer that joins the firm. Our, the firm provides the, the equipment to everyone is what I mean.

So that you, you, you avoid the co-mingling of personal and, and firm. And then the other thing that we do for security it took us a bit. We finally rolled out the the RingCentral app on all of our cell phones and our desktops so that we have a so that we have a sorry, just rang and you can’t hear it cuz it’s in my phone, but like right on rang right on, on queue there.

But it’s, it’s so that it’s it’s, it ring fences all the contacts and the client information into a single secure app on phones instead of people using their cell phones and mixing all the contacts in general. So we’re able to, to try and, and streamline exactly where all of. The contact, the client contacts are [00:24:00] sitting mostly for confidentiality, but I think as a business person, it’s a good way to, to secure the, the business, you know, the, the business risk there as well.
Okay. Jen, anything else on privacy or confidentiality? No, I, that’s, that’s good. That’s a, this is an ongoing issue for us that we care a lot about. Well, you know, the, the biggest thing, I say this as, let me give you some legal advice. Mm-hmm. employment lawyer. Just stick it in the contract up front.

Right. I have a whole section on remote working that I build out in 2017 before all the Covid stuff, and it speaks to things. You know, and just expected communications and you, you know, I I people are, are contractually required to have a dedicated room. I don’t want you working on your dining room table.
First of all, we have three big monitors, a scanner, a printer, like everything is all in one big, like you need a, a dedicated desk for that. And it’s also law society. Yeah. Concerns. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I think they’ve forced to, to get a bit flexible on that over the last two years.  Just stick it right in the contract about what the, the expectations are.

So you’ve come so far in a few years and wondering where do you see yourself three years from?

So it’s, it’s, it is always difficult to predict that because technology changes and I love to move quickly with it. So, I on the one hand, I’m always a little hesitant to say, but what I do know for sure is. , I don’t need to be a lot bigger than what I am now. I, we’ve got 10 people on the team. I am, you know recruiting and, and looking to hire two people this summer, but that’s because I’ve got two of our lawyers that are going on a mat leave.

And so I, I, and so, you know, I hope to keep everybody after, but I don’t need it to get bigger because I would much rather scale with more legal products and, and more automation and, and just keep really heavily focused on. How do we fine tune [00:26:00] and make existing legal services efficient and not just throw more time at everything and not more one-on-one?

The more we can build out legal services that are one to many . or legal products that are one to many or marry things together. So, you know, like we have a subscription program where the, the members. Go onto our, our legal documents hub and just grab the template from there, do what they wanna do on their end, and then call us and then we can advise.

So it’s, it is more of a volume play from a business point of view, but I just, I’m always putting myself in their shoes as a fellow small business owner. And I, I don’t want to, I don’t have it and I don’t want to put it in my budget to be spending, you know, $4,000 every time I need a new contract on. It doesn’t make any sense.

Not when it’s something that there’s so much commonality. Now, we also are in a practice area where this, it, it is, it facilitates this approach of, of automating services as much as possible. , but I also tried to avoid some areas where I think it’s gonna be really highly bespoke. Cause that’s, it’s it gets messy and not really what we’re interested in doing.

Could you see the AI doing some of the drafting for you? . Yes. Okay. So it’s been on my list of things to do last year and this year. And earlier a lot more doc automation. Right? A lot more of, instead of just a Google form, which is great still, but you know, and, but it drops that into a spreadsheet.

You still have to pluck the, the spreadsheet information out, what you know, and we have explored with different software options over the last couple years. You send that questionnaire out to the client, they send it back in and, or you send the questionnaire out and it pops a template of, of the thing they’re looking for.
So it’s, it’s there’s lots of firms doing that already. So it’s, I’m, I’m behind on that piece for sure. I know we are. So for now, we rely a lot on templates. But it’s, it’s, it, it restricts the, the value, you know, it really contains the value to the client because you’re still gonna have to be.

Manual component of it if you don’t have the AI tool that can just build that out. So I, and that stuff exists already. I mean, I can think of a couple of companies off the top of my head that already do that for law firms and other companies. So I it’s on my list. That’s on your AI wishlist, right? Do you have an AI wishlist?

Well, I see AI must do list. I feel, I feel really like ancient, not having that in play already. That, that, that should just exist already and it’s just, Working on it. Working on it. John, do you have any other questions or should I ask our final, final question that we always like to ask people at the end?

Yeah, so the question is that if you could have a personal AI assistant, like. The Jarvis AI from Ironman. For those who may or may not be familiar with that character what would you get your Jarvis to do? Well, this is a live issue for me because this is my,  who’s not on the. The clearly you have, there’s only an audio.

What you’re missing is my awesome mouse. It’s an Ironman mouse where the, of the helmet and the eyes when it’s working, like, it’s like a blue light of the eyes even. So that’s amazing. Amazing. Mouse or mouse, I should say. Yeah. It is, it is very cool. So my team actually bought that for me as a gift one, which was very kind so I, okay. If, if I had Jarvis, I, there’s two things that I, I would. Number one is time travel because, and I, I’m sure that AI tool doesn’t exist yet, but I like Jarvis do the time travel. Yeah, exactly. Please, yes. Well, so that I can go back and just like add another eight hours to many days, or I just want another eight hours, you know, I, without, in, without sacrificing family time, I still wanna, you know, go to the movies and go out for dinner, but then also have like a.

Kick ass day full of all kinds of productivity. And there’s only, you kinda want a time bubble. It’s like if you had like a time bubble that you could like, like Jarvis [00:30:00] could set up a bubble for you. Yeah. And to just like teleport in and out. Yeah. You know? And then, and then, but keep my life going. So yeah.
A bubble to expand it out. The second thing is that if, if Jarvis is unavailable to do that, then if Jarvis could please clone me, that would be awesome . Cause then I could. I could do work, and then I could also, you know, go, go. Wow. Well, and you can put the clone in the bubble also. And if I do multiple, like that’s world domination, territory

yeah. I see, I see where you’re, I see where you’re thinking here. awesome. Until that happens, you know? Okay. All right. Thank you very much, Lisa, for taking the time to do this. Do you have any bits of advice for someone who might be thinking of changing their firm and, and trying to modernize? I think really thinking through the client journey and the, and the practical [00:31:00] solution that you want first, and then attach tech to it.

I know that I’ve got lots of tech all over the place and the next step for me is to then really. Convert that to a far more efficient AI right? It’s like I’m, I’m using the, the, the horse and cart right now and I wanna start driving a car. I feel like that’s, that’s where AI will help me. And we’ve got little bits of it here and there and just, it’s one great big onion not to have so many metaphors in one sentence, but one big and just one layer at a time.

And so I, I. I know I need to dock automation thing in place, for example, and that’s one of the, the sooner layers of that onion that I wanna get to For sure. And if people want to get hold of you, what’s the best way to do that? Come to my website, spring and then my email address is
And if you phone me, don’t leave a message cause I’ll never listen to it. So just email me or come to the website. . Send the emails. Send the emails, yes. Okay.

Yes. Super. Well, thank you so much. Any, any last words. No thank you. I love what you guys do, right? I mean, I love what how you, you break it down into human language and human warm help to, to guide people and, and and not try to talk over everyone and make yourself sound all fancy and smart.
It’s AI is another tool in the toolbox and, and something that we all have to really pay attention to. So it’s, I love AI guides. I think you guys are, You, you’re really making big inroads in the market to help people. It’s nice to watch. Thank you so much.

Thank, dear. Thank you. Very packed. And that’s it.
Thank you guys.

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